| |
|
"Commercial Pool Problems"
Dealing with different standards & requirements..
The Pool & Spa Informational Website
askalanaquestion.com |
Questions & Problems
|
Scroll down to browse
through some archived SWIMMING POOL questions and answers.
Please access the Pool Problems Page and other links, at the top of
every page, for additional information.
|
Commercial Pools cannot always use the same chemicals that are used in typical
residential pools, because of the regulations of local health departments.
What is permitted will vary from
state to state. High bather usage can require specialized equipment and
sanitizing practices.
Clicking
on the underlined and highlighted
"keywords" or "catch phrases," in the archived answers will
give you access to additional information on that topic or product.
Please refer to the Glossary, if
there are terms or phrases that require explanation.
For an alphabetized listing of the
entire contents of the website, use the
Table of Contents link, on top of
every page.
( CLICK THE PICTURE FOR MORE INFORMATION.)
|
More information about pre-cast swimming pool coping can be found on the
Federal Stone Industries Preview Page
in the "Pools & Equipment" Product Information Section.
Links are available to connect you to their website.
|
► Commercial Pool
Chlorination?
I recently started taking care
of a commercial pool and am having problems getting the chlorine levels up. It
seems that no matter how many times I clean/replace the filters, add trichlor
sticks or shock with lithium, I can't get the chlorine level any higher than 1
on my 4-way test strips. Any suggestions. Thanks in Advance,
Rick S., Bolton Valley, VT,
4/23/2007
There are basically two possibilities here. The
chlorine requirements could be so high that the chlorine sticks cannot keep up
with the demand.
Unless the chlorine feeder is oversized and full, it may not
be able to dissolve the product at a fast enough rate and that explains the need
for the shock treatment. Trichlor is not the best way to sanitize a commercial
pool. The other possibility is that
the test strips are not reading properly. This can happen, if the strips are
removed with wet fingers or not stored properly. I suggest that you use
something else to verify the results. In either case, you must use products and
testers that are allowed for use in commercial pools. State laws vary, on these
matters.
LaMotte Insta-Test strips are approved
for use in some commercial pools. Has anyone ever thought about upgrading the
sanitizing??? A
salt chlorine generator
would be an excellent choice, as it is a benefit to both the operator and the
pool users. Another thing to consider is the use of
ultraviolet
sanitizing. It won't replace the chlorine, but will greatly
reduce the amount of chlorine required, dramatically reduce the chloramine odor
and simplify the water chemistry. I hope that this information will prove helpful.
Sincerely. Alan
Schuster, 4/23/2007
►
Controlling The Water Chemistry?
We run a small community pool and
would like to research a better means of adding chemicals. The pool uses
liquid chlorine and acid and these are added with feeding pumps, tied into the
operation of the filter and pump. The problem is that the bather use
is anything but consistent and sometimes there is too much chlorine and other
times there is not enough. Are there controllers that can be added?
How expensive are they? Thanks for the help.
B. M.,
Knoxville, TN, 6/23/2008
Yes, controllers can be added
that will help regulate the addition of the chlorine and acid.
It should give you more uniform conditions. So far as the cost of these
controllers is concerned, I will have to pass. There are several
manufacturers of such equipment. I suggest that you consult with a pool
company that deals with non-residential pools. There are other chemical
saving and highly controllable sanitizing methods, that are suitable for use in
commercial-type pools. Ozonation, for example, would deal with the
introduction of bather wastes and would decrease the amount of chlorine required
to maintain a satisfactory level.
Salt chlorine generators and
UV Sanitizers are other possibilities. Browse through the pages on these
topics for more information. Sorry, that I couldn't provide all of the
details.
Sincerely.
Alan Schuster, 6/24/2008
► Reducing The Chlorine Odor?
I operate a commercial indoor pool that gets a lot of use. The odor is
a real problem with some of the users. I know that chloramines are the
cause, but I can't keep on adding shock, as the pool is very high volume.
I have heard the ultraviolet can make a difference. Is there any truth to
that? Thanks for the time spent.
Frank B., 5/18/2005
In indoor high-use commercial pools, odor can be an
unpleasant feature. You will find the environment of the pool to be vastly
improved, within 1-3 days, after installing an
Ultraviolet
Sanitizer System. The UV rays not only sanitize the water,
but dramatically reduce or eliminate the chloramines.
When chlorine combines with nitrogen-ammonia compounds, chloramines are formed
and produce the chlorine smell that is so obnoxious, irritating and unhealthy.
Less chlorine will be required to maintain the customary levels and the overall
water chemistry will be less subject to fluctuation and buildup problems.
I hope that I have explained some of the benefits.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 5/18/2005
►
Chloramines And
Ionization?
A public pool that I swim at has had chronic
chloramine build up that has resulted in air quality issues. The pool is
approximately 125,000 gallons with a high bather load and uses liquid chlorine
and muriatic acid. I know there are a lot of factors that go into reducing
chloramines, but my question is specific to a copper/silver ionizer. This
equipment was installed at this pool for the sole purpose of reducing
chloramines, but there has been no real improvement. According to the
owner, it is working, but you wouldn’t know it. Chloramines are
consistently above 1 ppm and the air is heavy with the odor. They also
state that they shock the pool with liquid chlorine to reach breakpoint.
They do not use MPS for shock treatment. My question is whether or not the
ionization system, they have in place, is actually capable of breaking down
chloramines? My understanding of copper/silver is that they are sanitizers
via ionization, but not strong oxidizers. Can you tell me if there are
merits to this system with respect to chloramine reduction? Thanks for any
insight. You provide a great service.
Richard W.,1/26/2008
You
seem to have an excellent understanding of the issues. Ionization
alone will not eliminate or reduce the chloramine concentration. It should
reduce the amount of chlorine required to maintain a proper free chlorine
level, but will have no effect on chloramines. To destroy or reduce the
chloramine content, oxidation is required. It can be in the form of
chlorine or potassium monopersulfate.
UltraPure Water Quality Ozone
Generators will reduce chloramines
and odors very effectively, but will still need some chlorine to act as a
backup sanitizer. A salt
chlorine generator would have been a
better choice, as it manufactures chlorine, right in the pool. The water
would be stripped of chloramines, as water passes through the salt cell. State law might enter into which equipment is best suited for a public or
commercial pool and this should be considered. I think a better choice
could have been made. I hope that this information will prove helpful.
Sincerely.
Alan Schuster, 1/26/2008
► Unhappy With
Biguanide In A Spa?
I manage a large commercial spa. It is indoors, contains
1800 gallons and is heated to 103'. The bather load is about 80 people per
day. The filter runs about 10 hours a day on high speed. Currently I am using
a Biguanide system. I am very unhappy due to the complexities involved and
because I am having problems maintaining water clarity. Chlorine is not an
option because of the odor and irritation. From the information I gleaned from
your web-site, I am considering converting to Bromine with UV sanitizer and
ozonator. As far as the bromine is concerned, do I go with the tablets or
2-part system? What do I use for shock? How do I size the proper ozonator
and UV? Thanks for a great web-site. Sincerely.
A. H., New York, 10/5/2008
I am shocked that the NY health department allowed
you to maintain a commercial spa , in that manner. Whoever talked you into
biguanide was only concerned about their profit margin. You need to treat
this, as if it were a pool, as that is what the bather load demands. The
ozone generator, Ultra-Violet Sanitizer and bromine feeder, should be sized
to treat a pool. Your three fold approach is sound and is what I would
recommend. I would use an inline bromine feeder and try to keep the
level at 3-5 PPM. The
ozonator
will make it easier to do and allow you to use less bromine, to maintain any
given level. For more information about ozone generators go to:
www.waterquality.net
The
UV
Sanitizer makes perfect sense, as it kills virtually
all microorganisms, includes the worst offenders. If you add some
sodium bromide to the water, you can use chlorine to shock the spa, as the
chlorine will convert to bromine.
If reduced chemical usage is the intent, UV sanitizing
is the place to start! UV treatment will reduce the microbial populations
in the return flow to near zero, without the use of chemicals. However, it
cannot oxidize wastes or totally eliminate the microbial population in pool
or spa water or prevent the growth of biofilm on the underwater surfaces.
Products such ozone or bromine must be used, in conjunction with UV. How
much will be required will depend upon actual bather usage. More usage will
require more chemicals. In order to assure that adequate oxidation and
sanitation exist at all times, I suggest that you try and maintain a level
of bromine, at about the normal level or 3-5 PPM. The UV unit will help
decrease microbial populations and reduce the amount of bromine, necessary
to maintain any given PPM level, by up to 70%. Over time, charting the
amount of chemicals added, the bather usage and the bromine level will
provide the best indication of actual chemical requirements. For more
information on UV sanitizers go to:
www.deltauv.com
I hope that this information will be helpful.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 10/6/2008
►
Clouded Up?
I am on the board of a homeowners pool and a recent grad of a CPO course
however, I need some help on a problem. Our pool is 80,000 gallons.
The pH reading is 7.2, FAC is 2 ppm, TA is 220. We use Calcium Hypochlorite as
our sanitizer. Our pool opened today and the water was crystal clear.
The ambient temperature was 91
°F. Not sure of water temperature.
Four hours into our first day the water started to become cloudy. Two
hours later very cloudy. We backwashed the filters. Additionally,
according to my CPO book we should try the acid column to convert the C03
to C02.
I have read several of your answers regarding TA. I am more concerned
with the cloudiness. Any help?
Doug, 5/18/2003
It would have
been nice to know what the calcium hardness reading was? The use of
calcium hypochlorite will raise the calcium level, the pH and the TA. Your
TA is already too high and it is likely that the calcium reading is in the
hundreds of PPM. That can account for the cloudy pool water problem.
Depending on the makeup of the dissolved mineral, lowering the TA might prove
difficult, but it should be tried.
I suggest that you consider using
something other than calcium hypochlorite. Liquid chlorine would seem
logical. Even better would be a
salt chlorine generator. Otherwise, the increasing calcium hardness levels will only cause
more and more pool water clarity problems. Adding mineral treatments will help to an
extent, but is not a long term solution. I hope that I have been of
assistance. Good luck.
Sincerely.
Alan Schuster, 5/19/2003
|
Visit The Test Equipment Store, for all your needs. |
► ORP Confusion?
Having a bit of a bizarre issue
with the pool which I run! The Alkalinity is always a bit low
(65-75ppm) so have been adding sodium bicarbonate to the pool to bring it up a
bit, I use sodium hypochlorite as the disinfectant. The levels of disinfectant
are measured in redox only (this is the only one I've ever come across that does
not have the PPM reading on as well) which only measures the disinfectant
activity and not quantity. Every time, I add sodium bicarbonate the
chlorine goes up. does adding bicarbonate interfere with the redox
reading, thus causing it to dose more chlorine? Or is it just a freaky
coincidence? I really hope you can help as most people run at the
mention of redox controllers. Not sure buying a new controller is an
option? Yours in anticipation
Julie, United Kingdom, 8/15/2005
It is not a matter of
interference. The controller is measuring the Oxidation-Reduction
Potential. As expected, adding chlorine causes the reading to rise.
The ORP is based on the hypochlorous acid concentration, which rises as
the PPM of free chlorine increases. This same reading falls as the pH
rises and rises as the pH drops, due to the equilibrium between the hypochlorous
acid and hypochlorous ion concentrations. In your case, adding
sodium bicarbonate causes the pH to nudge upward, lowering the ORP and causing
the controller to add more chlorine to raise the ORP. In order to maintain
proper pH and chlorine conditions, the pH and ORP must both be under control.
So long as the pH is within the desired 7.2-7.6 range, the controller will keep
the chlorine at the proper level. I hope that this information proves
helpful.
Sincerely. Alan
Schuster, 8/15/2005
► Stabilizer & Indoor Salt Chlorinator?
We have two pools/spas with
chlorine generators. I read where a stabilizer is recommended, but these
are indoor (hotel) pools, so why would I need the cyanuric acid? Thanks
for your time!
Steve, Iron River, MI,
3/37/2007
I don't know
where you read that. I see no reason that Cyanuric Acid should be
required. UV is an outdoor problem. Dichlor is used, indoors, because
it is quick dissolving and essentially pH neutral. My guess is that the
instructions were not written with an indoor pool in mind. I hope that
this information is helpful.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 3/27/2007
► Calculating Bather Loads?
I have a large group coming into our municipal
pool. How can I be sure that the pool will accommodate that number of
people?
M. C., 9/8/2005
According to CPO information,
the following calculations are used.
Commercial Pools:
Surface Area in Square Feet divided by 24 = maximum bathers.
Commercial Spas: Surface
Area in Square Feet divided by 10 = maximum bathers.
Please verify that this
information is current or applicable to for your area.
Sincerely. Alan
Schuster, 9/9/2005
►
Commercial
Salt
Chlorine Generators?
We
operate a resort with 5 pools, ranging from about 50,000 to 300,000 gallons.
All are commercial hotel/resort pools that get a lot of use. Most of the
chlorine generators, I've see have limits of 25,000 gallons. Would it feasible
to put more than one on a pool in series or parallel? Would that work? Or is it
not a good idea on a commercial pool?
Mike R.,
2/11/2008
Many salt chlorine
generators are designed and sized for residential pools. Multiple units can be
used to accommodate larger pools. With a salt chlorine generator,
over-sizing is better. It provides a reserve capacity that helps pools cope
with periods of peak usage.
The proper sizing of a salt chlorine generator,
for commercial use, is dependent on the following factors: pool volume,
maximum bather load throughout the entire day, circulation pump run hours/day,
indoor or outdoor location, inclusion of special water features, water
falls, fountain heads, negative edge, wave making, slides, etc and what is the
maximum water temperature the pool can reach, at the hottest part of the summer.
My recommendation would be
AutoPilot,
for two reasons. They have a complete line of units, to accommodate pools of
all sizes and situations just like yours. In addition, they thoroughly know the
topic of salt chlorine generators and have the expertise that you require. When
I have a question, I ask them. For matters involving sales, pricing, service,
warranty or installation, please go to:
www.autopilot.com
I hope that this will help with the decision-making.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 2/11/2008
► Combined Chlorine
Issues?
This is not your standard question regarding chloramine
reduction. As a Health Inspector I deal with this issue a lot but here I want to
ask about speed. Specifically the speed at which breakpoint can be
achieved. A health club that closes at 10:00 pm and opens at 5:00 AM tries
to beat the clock in super chlorination. With chloramines that reach 1-2
ppm, how fast can breakpoint be achieved with conventional shocking with liquid
chlorine? 125,000 gallon lap pool. The CDC discusses contact time in
cases of liquid stool contamination. Double the dose of chlorine results
in half the time needed for contact. Can this same principle be used in
chloramine elimination? 1.0 ppm CC conventionally requires 10 ppm chlorine
to reach breakpoint (actually 7.5 or so but who's counting). What about
1.0 ppm CC hit with 20 ppm chlorine? Potassium peroxymonosulfate could be
an option, but they do not have a test kit to deal with the interference on
testing chlorine. Seemingly pointless,
if you don't know you have reached breakpoint. Alan, please hurry!
Thanks!
Tim R., 2/16/2008
All chemical reactions, and
destroying combined chlorine is a chemical reaction, are partially governed by
concentration. This is really a physical chemistry problem, but simply stated,
time, temperature and circulation have to be considered, as well. Raising the
concentration, will cut the reaction time, but even that is effected by
variables. A pool is full is organics, that given time, will form more
combined chlorine. If there is 1 PPM of combined chlorine at pool closing time,
adding 10 PPM of free chlorine might not be enough, because of the organics
present reacting with the free chlorine or the formation of more combined
chlorine, from the nitrogenous wastes. Adding 10 PPM of free chlorine could
still leave you with more than 1 PPM of combined chlorine. No two pools or
situations are the same, so a set figure might not always work. If 10-1 does
not produce a combined chlorine of less than 1 PPM, while leaving a free
chlorine level, within your state's guidelines, I can see the utility of adding
12-1 or 15-1 or more. Potassium monopersulfate would be an alternative
worth looking into. It might be used, in conjunction, with the regular dosing
of liquid chlorine. LaMotte Company offers MPS test strips. I am not sure what
your state allows, in terms of alternative sanitizing, but
salt
chlorine generators,
ozone generators
or UV
sanitizers
can go a long way towards improving swimming conditions and compliance with the
sanitation requirements. I hope that I have been of some help.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 2/16/2008
► Appearance Of Stains?
I operate a 240,000 gallon
painted plaster outdoor pool; after using bromine for about 20 years we switched
to calcium hypochlorite in 2004. We never had any "staining: problem using
bromine, just a minor green algae problem which we handled with the appropriate
algaecide. The summer of 2004 we experienced tan
/light brown/yellowish "staining" - on the walls and floor of the pool, starting
in the diving well, slowly moving out into the shallower parts of the pool,
gradually increasing in quantity as the summer went on. The pool company I
dealt with said it was a metal stain and had me use metal treatment products to
take care of. Pool was shut down for several days, chemicals added - all
pertinent directions followed, pool thoroughly brushed, backwashed sand filters
thoroughly and put pool back into operation, using a metal treatment product on
a maintenance basis. However, the stains began to return. They can be brushed
off if done early in their appearance - but difficult considering the size of
the pool. When you brush it off water in area turns milky. When I opened pool
in 2005 since metal staining did not seem to be the culprit we switched gears to
algae "staining." I treated pool with shock and algaecide, initially and on a
maintenance basis. But the stains appeared same as in 2004. Only thorough
brushing kept them somewhat under control for the summer. My question is
this? How do I determine for sure what is causing the "stain" to form, and then
what to do to prevent or control it. The only thing we changed was switching
from bromine to cal-hypo. Each spring the pool is emptied, then cleaned with TSP
and an acid wash before refilling and putting into operation. We stay on top of
everything else - free and combined chlorine, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness,
filter cleaning, etc. We checked the source water for the pool and nothing
changed there. The pool company I work with is at a loss. Any ideas? Would
appreciate it.
Dick W., 3/8/2006
I am not sure that is the
answer, but it does fit the facts. Bromine is acidic and will tend to keep the
pH and TA towards the lower end, unless adjustments are made. It does not
contribute to the calcium hardness. Minerals and metals tend to be more soluble
at lower pH ranges. Cal hypo has a high pH and will raise the pH and TA, as
product s being added. This tends to decrease the solubility of minerals and
metals, as the pH and TA rise. Adding more and more calcium hardness over time
only makes for more problems. I suggest that you monitor the calcium hardness
and add regular doses of scale treatment. When the calcium level exceeds 400
PPM, scaling becomes more likely, as does metal staining. Calcium hypo may
not be the best product to use, in this pool. I realize that there are cost
considerations, but liquid chlorine would avoid the increasing hardness levels.
Have you ever considered a
salt chlorine generator.
It will give you more control and less handling and storage problems. And
the water will smell and feel better. Good luck and
I hope that I have been helpful.
Sincerely. Alan
Schuster, 3/8/2006
► A Big Pool To Clean?
We will be operation a
large pool, as shown, in the attached photo. Kindly advise best
cleaning solutions that can save money and do the Job. This pool
will be taking a large quantity of Chlorine to avoid algae. Many
thanks for you. Kind Regards.
Robotic pool cleaners
are very easy to use, effective and do not require any plumbing or
installation. They don't just throw the dirt up for the filter to catch - it
actually removes even the finest sediment and debris. They act as a moving main
drain and as a second micro-filter. It can clean the pool floor, walls and even
the steps. There is not much that you need to do, other than a simple,
occasional cleaning. The
Pro-Kleen
Models, from SmartPool,
are designed for larger commercial pools and have the longer cords and bigger
sweeping areas. I hope that this information help get a cleaner pool.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 1/14/2008
► Cracked Pool Wall?
We operate a 100,000 gallon commercial pool and recently
had a crack develop in a wall. It was repaired and painted over. It
now seems to have reopened and is probably responsible for a significant water
loss. Do you have any suggestions for making a better repair? Thanks
for any help you can offer.
Martin M., Georgia, 4/21/2005
Most likely this is a stress crack and needs to be
stabilized. Products, such as epoxy, can be used, but don't always work while the crack is
under pressure to expand.
Good luck and I hope that this solves the problem.
Sincerely. Alan Schuster, 4/21/2005
| |
